Transcript of CBS Debate Regarding APA

While in DC, at a Pastor's conference, I did a local debate regarding the APA silencing people holding the "ex-gay" viewpoint from speaking into a symposium they had scheduled and then canceled at the last minute. Someone forwarded the transcript to me. I phoned in to the local CBS affiliate there in town because it was *very* last minute and I couldn't get there and do all the things I had to do for the conference at the same time. I did not alter the transcript at all but it was sent to me by a third party. After reading it I think it is word for word.

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Organizers say they pulled the plug when one of their participants backed out. Others say it was pressure from gay activists. In a moment, we’ll talk about whether gays and lesbians are born with same sex attractions and whether someone can be, quote, cured of homosexuality.

But first, our Greta Kreuz. [The earlier news report that had been aired on News Channel 8’s sister station, WJLA, can be seen HERE.]

Bruce DePuyt (BD): Joining us now live in the studio is David Fishback of the Metro DC Chapter of PFLAG — Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, Good to see you again. With us by phone is Randy Thomas of Exodus International. Thank you for your time today.

Randy Thomas (RT): Thank you.

BD: Your reaction, Mr. Thomas, to the cancellation of the conference.
RT: Well, you know, the APA’s decision conveys that they would rather shut us up than to reach out. Any time you allow one party to dictate the terms of dialogue, you abandon equality. Where does this decision leave people of faith? It leaves us out in the cold. We do have a valid testimony , we do have valid viewpoints that should be considered.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you agree that , in general, you know, that people will have differences? But at least at a conference, at least people are talking. Maybe past each other, but they are talking. Do you regret that the conference was cancelled?

David Fishback (DF): Well, the problem, I think, is in terms of who the representative of the ex-gay group was. Professor Throckmorton has taken many positions over the years that have been absolutely at odds with the positions of every single mainstream American medical and mental health association including that of the American Medical Association, which has concluded that these conversion therapies are dangerous and should not be engaged in. So when you’re talking about….

BD: But what does he advocate?

DF: I know a number of years ago, when I was looking at this very closely for the Montgomery County Public Schools, his view was that, well, as long as somebody has an explanation as to why they are gay â€" frankly, whether it’s correct or not â€" that gives them some comfort that there is somebody to blame. Well, that approach is fundamentally destructive of families The medical community, the scientific community has concluded that sexual orientation is not a choice, Simply because the science has not been able to pin down the precise etiology of what causes sexual orientation does not mean that the scientific community is incorrect when they say that, one, it’s not a choice, and, two, it’s not something that’s caused, as the American Academy of Pediatrics has said, it’s not something caused by abnormal parenting or abusive relationships. And that’s the key thing here.

I suspect, but I don’t know, what the APA may have been concerned about was whether Dr. Throckmorton now accepts the science and his viewpoint is, “Well , that if people have theological viewpoints, they have to find ways to live happy lives being celibate,” that would be a legitimate discussion. But if the question is, well, can people really change, all the scientific evidence is that people can’t and it is cruel to tell people they can.

BD: Mr. Thomas, are you at all sympathetic to the view that much of the rhetoric we hear. Now you’re telling an entire class of people that they are essentially invalid?..

RT: Well, what I’m here to say is that 16 years ago I decided not to identify as a gay man and to seek change and I was met with answers that I was [unintelligible] to my life. And Exodus has had a 70% growth rate in five years The demand for our viewpoint is out there and people are wanting something other than the politically correct doctrine that most of these organizations are espousing. Because the truth is that change happens incrementally. For some people it doesn’t happen. For other people it does. For me, it has. And so the APA to completely ignore that reality that there is incremental change for people of faith is to ignore the reality that this issue is a lot broader, a lot more complicated than what the activists are presenting.

BD: Mr. Thomas, let me ask you this: And let’s see if we can get both of you to find any middle ground at all. Is it possible, Mr. Thomas, that some people with same sex attractions would like not to have it and so that this therapy is the way to go and living a heterosexual life is the preferred way, but that some gays and lesbians are very happy as they are and there shouldn’t be a suggestion that all gays need curing

RT: Well, we never suggested that all gays need to be cured. That’s not one of our talking points. That’s our opponent’s talking point. We respect the right to self-determination and that is what the APA is supposed to be about: That people can look at arguments from both sides, they can look at the testimonies of people who identify as gay and have long term relationships and they can look at my testimony and the testimony of thousands of others like me . And they can make the decision for themselves. I would completely agree that no one should feel shame or condemnation for their same sex attraction. I speak out against that as much as I do about how change is possible. That’s my way of grace. I do not agree that there is only one option for people with same sex attractions.

BD: Mr. Fishback, do you think that gays need to be more tolerant of folks who’ve adopted the path of Mr. Thomas and others.

DF: I think people should always be sympathetic to people who hold strong theological viewpoints that impact how they would like to live their lives. But what Mr. Thomas ignores is the fact that the American Medical Association, not some interest group, the American Medical Association has explicitly condemned conversion therapies that are based on the proposition that people should or ought to change their sexual orientation. Why….

RT: And they are yet another professional organization that has been taken over by gay activists.

DF: So the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association — basically, what Mr. Thomas is saying is that all the respected medical groups in this country have been taken over by some kind of cabal without any basis in science, without any basis in fact. And that the only people who are right are the people with a particular theological agenda. I may wish to be……

RT: That’s not the truth. The APA is ignoring people like myself and they need to quit it.

DF: I may wish to be six feet tall, but nothing I can do can make me six feet tall.

BD: David Fishback, Randy Thomas, thank you very much for your time. Unfortunately, we will have to leave the debate there for now We thank both of you for coming in.

Afterthoughts.

Well, you know I need to quit saying "Well" and "you know" so much. . Also, at the end when Mr. Fishback started going after me I got a little flustered and the whole "…quit it" thing was embarassing. I assure you that I am an adult … I am I am I am! After I said "quit it" I had to stifle a laugh because I couldn't believe I said it.

As for the content. I don't think I have anything to add at this time.