Pondering Gay Marriage in California

by Randy on June 17, 2008

I have spent the better part of two hours writing a post about Gay marriage in California. Normally I am all over this issue and full of opinions. Now … it is honestly and probably one of the most difficult “marriage” posts I have written. At least that’s what it feels like. In the rough draft I have hit on the issue of watching two communities I love at war with each other.

Throw in a little “the transcendent grandeur of a Holy Covenant intended to bear God’s Image in a unique way for all of mankind is being reduced to sloganeering and sound bytes on both sides” and you catch a glimpse of my dilemma.

So, while I wait on wise feedback from good friends, lemmee know what you think. Plus, I want personal testimony that is getting past what’s always said when this issue comes up.

Think out loud with me :).

::: ponder :::

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Tagged as: California, Church, Friends, Gay, gay marriage, God, Love, marriage, Open Threads, Personal, Testimony, Writing

Viewing 18 Comments

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    I honestly think Gay Marriage has never been and will never be the threat the far right makes it out to be. Took me a long time to reconcile the thought, but when it came down to it... there isn't a logical moral or religious argument for it (assuming you like being in a pluralistic society) and there is absolutely no legal argument opposed to "gay" "marriage."

    I hate calling them "gay rights." They are privileges, however they are privileges are ever progressing society has granted to a certain class of citizens. It's against the law and inhumane to deny privileges with legal protections, benefits, and guarantees to supposed second class citizens.

    The Republican Party will get right or ship out. I for one beg my party to reconsider.
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    thanks for getting the ball rolling Ali ... now y'all ... don't be timid.
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    I am very frustrated with the Church on this issue. Like other issues, the Church will wait until they have to react(defensively) instead of leading offensively, even though I've heard quite a few pastors/evangelist preach against SSM, but offering no practical ways to make a stand against it. I've brought up the SSM issue to several local church leaders. The reactions were the same: a slight chuckle, shrugged shoulders and a negative wave of the head. One individual added:"let it happen... it will mean Jesus is returning!" I don't think the light bulb is burning as bright as it once did [in his ol noggin]. We are to up hold justice and righteousness... maintain until Christ returns. To be salt and light, expose and reprove sin [first in the Church then the world], speaking the Truth in love.
    I'm afraid the SSM issue is going the way of Roe VS Wade. If something isn't done very soon to force a Supreme Court ruling against SSM and nullifying the rogue state courts, it will become like the slavery issue in the 17th/18th century and the present abortion issue... adding yet another wedge that creates an unrepairable split in this country. Maybe then the Church will become unified, humble herself and seek God's face for divine intervention.
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    It's definitely tough (when has it not been?). My worldview (faith in Scripture) doesn't allow me to support or honor gay marriages. But on the other hand, I know other people don't have that kind of faith in Scripture. Of course, the whole point of the law is to enforce morals upon those who would not otherwise practice them, isn't it?

    I don't personally see why gay couples shouldn't be able to share a bank account, insurance policy, or make medical decisions for each other if they so choose. As I understand, though, in many states they already have access to those things.

    Perhaps what is fueling the war over marriage is that sense of "something missing" that was partially responsible for why some of us have chosen to struggle away from homosexuality. From the blogs I've read, there seems to be an attitude among some gays that the inability to achieve full marriage recognition is responsible for a good deal of unhappiness.

    One blogger literally said that the law gives heterosexuals an "easy road to happiness" that is denied to gays. There are many things wrong with that statement, but one thing I've learned about chronic unhappiness and discontent--its source is often internal, no matter how much it's projected.

    But it's frustrating to constantly be labeled with "hate" and to have people interpret this as "my" way. There's no benefit to me personally if I do not support gay marriage, or if I do. Truth doesn't hinge on either one.
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    God is less and less a plum line for law or so it seems anyway. Without God and His standards given consideration in this country I don't see how SSM will not eventually be allowable and put into law. How can you persuade this country and those who want to make a commitment in SSM not to? What is the standard for making such a decision? If U.S. leaders don't abide by God's standard as foundation for decisions and laws made, then I don't see how SSM will not be common. There are same-sex couples that want to make a commitment of marriage and have it recognized. I personally see allowing it as further darkness in this country. Allowing it will be encouraging those in SS relationship not to question their propensity. Those law-makers have an accounting to God about this. I know how I think it should be by God's standard, one man/one woman in a covenant of marriage. Anything else is outside of God's standard. If our country gets away from God's standard I don't see how to approach the subject on common ground. ???
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    I guess the only thing I have to add, is I posted a link to your blog, on my blog, about the whole gay marriage thing. I had one response, a great guy, who made just one point...your use of the word 'mankind'. He suggested that it made your statement sound contradictory. I am personally sharing the sames feelings of the two communities of which I love converging and at times in not so pleasant of ways. Let us pray for each other.
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    America has been, and is continuing to fail as a society based on sound moral judgement. All one needs to do is take a look at the Law Practices of today.

    The truth is, we're living in a broken world, and these little 'legal victories' for social issues that are ultimately destructive are simply coded manifestations of that truth. America is not perfect, has never been perfect, and will continue to get worse. We seemed to have had a less evil time in history (as it relates to social behavior) but then, people had to carry guns on a regular basis, too.

    The gay marriage issue is but one item on America's list of national sins.

    HOWEVER....

    God promises many things to those who obey him. For those of us who struggle with SSA, we can rest in the fact that although the feelings are intense, we know we're in a place of blessing by simply obeying God. We don't have to explain ourselves to the world, but we will ALL have to give an account before the throne of Judgement! I'm going to take the long-term approach and do my best to obey God now so that I'm not having to pay for it in the end. It's just not worth it. This goes for ALL the issues, too!
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    I have mixed feelings about gay marriage. On one hand, the conservative side of me says that for the government to say who one may and may not make a legal contract of marriage with is wrong. In a free society, it's none of the government's buisiness if I want to make that contract with a competent man or a competent woman.

    On the other hand, I know that gay marriage will help to change the structure of the family, and that means children will be reared in uncharted territiory. Do we really want to use a person's childhood as an experiment in what family should be?

    I look at the example of divorce. Many warned about the negative effect of divorce on children, but 30 years ago or so, it became popular to assume that children would be fine. Divorce has now become the norm, and there are so many children of divorce that we see the pain from that kind of rearing as the norm. We accept it, even minimize it, at chilren's, and ultimately, societiy's expense.

    In addition, I kind of resent that gay marraige has come around at this time, so loudly and boldy with so much fan fare and media attention. For it makes it easier for euthanasia to slip into California with Bill AB 2747; there are a lot less parades for this kind of thing http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/labels/A.B.%20... .

    I think, bottom line is, what it comes down to for me, is if I am ever in a position, in my state, to vote on same sex marriage, I would have to follow God's law, for I fear for my country when we become like those in Romans 2. I would, even above my conservative leanings, have to vote 'no' on legalizing homosexual unions.

    I know the pain my thinking causes those who identify as gay who feel I am wanting to deny them human rights. I used to passionately be of the same thought, and it really hurts my heart that I will be hurting people. And I don't want to minimize those hurt feelings, but, with all due respect, there is so much more to the same sex marriage issue than a person's homosexual feelings.
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    @Ali - Thanks for your opinion but surprise ... I completely disagree with you. Don't feel any need to break out all the logical and legal arguments because its all already been done somewhere else. However, the charge of second class citizens is ridiculous. Marriage is a social benefit not a right. I am not a second class citizen for being single and life circumstance leading me down the road of single possibly for a lifetime. There are so many things wrong with "second class citizen" charge but that could be a whole other post.

    Even so, thanks again for your opinion.

    @Greg I hear you on being frustrated with the Church. Not sure I am tracking with the slavery and irreparable state of those issues but I see what you are saying. The consequences will echo for generations to come. thanks bud!

    @Mike very well put. I completely agree and have the benefit of talking to you in person! Thanks for adding your wisdom.

    @Susan good for you for stepping up to the plate! :) I think there is common ground because even though "God's standard" isn't agreed upon, the human experience cannot be denied. We all need love, identity, community, social order ... that stuff. That is part of my frustration. There are so many things that we could be talking about that would actually lead to fruitful dialog but we don't seem to have time because of the onslaught of culture war battles.

    @Amy Thanks for the linkage :) and empathy. Mankind is used in reference to all of humanity ...not just men. Does that clear it up?
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    @Mike Look at you too! Thanks for adding your thoughts. I love God's grace and how it manifests even in what I perceive as difficult times. I am praying for mercy and grace for our country ... who know what could happen? Good to see you Mike and pray for me man ... got serious on the workout thing again!

    @Julie Wow. I really appreciate your perspective and unique contribution to the discussion. It is amazing how this issue tends to just take over people's attention when there is soooooo much more going on to be concerned with. Excellent point.

    @Me just an update... I got some really good feedback on my rough draft and am going to work on a larger article for possible printing in a large magazine :). I appreciate your feedback and please...keep it coming! It's helping me process.

    you all rock!
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    The statement, "We believe that marriage is a unique institution created by God for the benefit of all mankind" was the hiccup for this guy. In the usage of mankind, I personally understood what you meant...however they were trying to make the argument that all "mankind" was men and women, which would lead to their concluding an affirmation for gay marriage. While I understood, they wanted to make argument.

    A more in depth opinion of mine on the issue, because I was at one point 'married' to my partner of 5 years, I understand the non-militant desire to 'marry'. On this side of grace I also understand that marriage is more than benefits, insurance privileges, and wills. Marriage, in the sight of God, is a covenant between God and the couple being married. Rather it is heterosexual or homosexual, a true marriage can not exists unless this tri-covenant is present. So, even if the ban doesn't happen in California in November, or even if gay marriage begins to be legal in all states, I believe the battle isn't gay marriage so much as marriage is a covenant. This does not segregate homosexuals, thus making them feel lesser than or picked on, rather it strikes both homosexuals and heterosexuals alike...if your marriage isn't in covenant of God under his design and rules...not matter the circumstances...then that marriage isn't valid in God's sight.

    Well, at least that is what I'm thinking now. I, too, am having to make my case for this so to present it well to the ministry in which I serve. Thanks for providing a forum to talk this out.
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    @Amy I understand what you are saying now about his views. And by the way... your comment is wonderful... seriously great. Can I potentially quote you in the article I am writing :). Really good stuff.

    Also, please feel free to leave a link to your blog. I know several Amy's and can't place your blog for the life of me.

    It's been a long day :)
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    @Randy Like I said... I don't see marriage as a right. I did say it was a privilege, however you can be second class in this nation (as history proves) and it deal with socio-economic status - which is altogether not guaranteed by our social contract. It is second class to be denied certain privileges all to which depend on gender, preference, or thought.

    I am no moral relativist... but I am a citizen of a society that believes in no one view.

    The national debater in me wants to say: let's have a definition debate before we get into the substance... b/c everyone is talking different languages.

    Also on an issue that is thrown in there, but shouldn't be: Jesus. Jesus wouldn't advocate against gays marrying by the state accommodation.
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    @Ali ... If you believe that His opinion changes with regard to worldly circumstance or that He would not be grieved by a state sanctioning a holy covenant that violates His word ... than you are a relativist to some degree.

    Plus, it's weird to me that you would say Jesus shouldn't be brought up. Are Christians supposed to leave their opinions outside the public square? Let me know when the Gay Christians start doing that.

    I won't be silenced by a secular humanist approach to public policy.

    The Lord Himself uses the marriage covenant as a symbol of His relationship with the Church; The Bridegroom and His Bride (The Book of Revelations and other places.) That symbol, that Imago Dei aspect of the two becoming one submitted to God, is *very* important to Him as obviously revealed all throughout scripture.

    The God I know would never be silent concerning issues that lead people further into what is outside of His design for marriage. He's too loving to not speak up. It's my opinion that He is speaking against the redefinition of marriage through the few redemptive voices out there concerning this issue.

    Now, if you are still reading :) I am all for talking about possible reciprocal benefits and the stewardship of materials, state benefits and all of that. Why not? When I was gay I paid taxes ... I understand that desire completely.
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    Ok, I guess I'm going to chime in on this one, too and try to not hit on the usual points.

    First, let me say, as some may know (and some may not), I had a wedding with my partner about 2 years ago. The wedding was here in Texas, and it was the best/most emotional day in my life. I've never been so happy, scared, excited, nervous, etc. all at once. We've been together since we were 19 (9 and half years), and I can't imagine my life without him. That's the mushy stuff.

    Ok, that said. My partner and I feel very married now, just as married as my straight married friends, and they see us that way too. Obviously, TX has a ban against gay marriage, so nothing is legal for us. We've done what we can to get the protections we feel are important, but we're not legally married.

    Call me naive (and I know this is not the popular sentiment in the gay community), but I am happy with where I am personally in my marriage. To me, marriage is a covenant between two people and God. I have that, and call me biased, but my bond of marriage feels stronger and more secure than a lot of legal marriages I see out there. The legal part of it is just kind of an extra piece thrown in, and so far that part hasn't affected me. It'd be nice, but it really hasn't made an impact on my life so far.

    I'm in favor of legalizing gay marriage. I don't think the sky is going to fall. I don't think the family unit as we know it is going to be drastically changed. And, for the record, I honestly take offense to claims that I am lacking some morality that straight people have because I am gay (not like David Benkof took offense, wow, but it still does offend me). All of that said, I honestly don't feel like a second class citizen because the state doesn't recognize my marriage. For me it's real. And, while I think the arguments against gay marriage are poorly founded, and I will debate against them, you'll never here me claim to be a second class citizen. I view that argument to be too extreme and over the top. It'd be nice to have my marriage be legal, but it won't affect how real my marriage to my partner already is in the eyes of us, my friends, and family--basically those who matter to me.
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    I AM CANADIAN!!

    And you know, since gay marriage has become legal in Canada I've been thinking about this whole issue myself. It's been a puzzling one for me.

    I'm puzzled with this....

    Focus On The Family becomes really political in such matters not just gay marriage but also matters concerning aborition. They truly are advocates and I'm not saying that I'm against Focus On The Family.

    There are just some thing I don't get.

    First, I understand that people in the GLBT community would like the same legal rights as everyone else in society and they probably would like to show society that they can sustain long and committed relationships with each other. And Lord knows that the rate of divorce within the church is high and that's a concern.
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    Second, continuation from before....

    I would say it's important to want to keep our definition of marriage between one man and one woman. Why do we need to re-define marriage? Why is that an important issue with people in the GLBT community?

    I don't understand some things. But one thing I do understand is this...Christ lived, He died on the cross and was raised back to life so that we can come into relationship with Jesus. One thing I do understand is that the only one who can transform lives is Jesus. And I know that God had called me beyond sexual and relational brokenness to experience what He originally intended for me in this life.

    And so, I think I'm going to enjoy reading through this blog.

    God Bless!
    Sarah<
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    ok, so third blog to complete the last 2 and probably reflects that I've since read more of the posts.

    @Randy...I see that you say that Gay marriage isn't a right it's a priviledge. And I'm not saying that I support the re-definition of marriage because I don't. I'm just confused as to why the GLBT community would like to see marriage re-defined. I guess now I seem redundant.

    I certianly don't think that my gay and lesbian friends and co-workers are second class citizens. I'm often the one having lunch with them and talking about every day stuff like I do with ALL my friends. And I don't usualy talk about the homosexual issue with my friends.

    However, a co-worker of mine announced her angagement with her partner and was thrilled! Excited! I can't say that I was jumping up and down with her in the hallway at work but she knows that I respect her in the midst of our differences.

    And so I guess I'll ask my questions another way...

    Would re-defining marriage make SSM legal in all States?
    And would this then open a door to legalizing gay marriages across the US? Can people within the GLBT community receive the same legal rights in a "union" or to receive those legal rights would they have to change "union" to "marriage"?

    Maybe it's not as complicated as I thought.
    Since California has legalized SSM does that mean they have re-defined marriage for that state?

    Sarah<
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    @Sarah -
    Thank you very much for your comments Sarah. I appreciate them but am exhausted and not able to respond at the moment. :). Thanks again and I hope you enjoy the blog.
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