Yesterday I was on the Chris Fabry Live! Show (Moody Broadcasting) concerning the story of famous Christian singer Ray Boltz. It was concerning how Mr. Boltz is now saying that he is gay and finally at peace with pursuing homosexual relationships.
It wasn't the best interview I've ever done and I think it is in part due to the fact that the whole thing is so sad to me. Let me explain, I feel awful for him that he felt so isolated and suffered from shame. It's sorrowful that he didn't feel like he could be honest and transparent with others unless it was to embrace a gay identity and worldview.
Boltz says, in an interview with a gay newspaper, that he read all the books but never went to an Exodus group or event. I also don't know Mr. Boltz personally. So I have no real context for what he did or didn't apply to his life. All I do know is that for myself, I can't just read books about relational issues. I have to apply those lessons and principles in a transparent and unfiltered relational life. Along with thousands upon thousands since the Corinthian Church (1 Cor. 6:9-11), I found that I could live out my faith, and sexuality, in a way that brings peace and contentment. I had to apply the knowledge gained from books and teachings into real life transparent relationships. I had to get out of my own head and start actually relating to people in honest and Biblically appropriate ways. This was necessary so that I could grow from the wisdom that can only be achieved through applied knowledge.
It was a much more difficult road than embracing a gay identity but one I found very worth traveling down.
I know there is enormous pressure by the homosexual community to say that embracing a gay worldview is the only way to be "honest." I know personally that isn't true. I pray someday that Mr. Boltz will also reconsider the testimony of those like myself.
I was really blessed by Boltz in the early days of my faith walk. I didn't even like Contemporary Christian Music back then (still have a hard time with most of it). I will remember those songs for the blessings that they are but they will also serve as a reminder to pray for Mr. Boltz and his family.
You stated that we do not choose homosexuality and at first...
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Ellie, did you mean to say, former liars, former murderers, former theives, former rapists? …and that is what some of you WERE (not are). Doesn't Rev. state that outside are those who did not exchange their lives for His?
What's sorrowful is that apparently he did not feel safe enough in church to share his real self so that people could be praying for him; he must have feared that they might have disowned him and given him the left foot of fellowship, even though he was apparently being faithful to his wife for all those years. What's sorrowful is that he didn't feel safe revealing his temptations, fearing that the fact that he was tempted would seem to some to be tantamount to sinning. What's sorrowful is that the judgmental church members who would disown him merely for being tempted would also have to disown Christ, for Christ was also tempted. And now, instead of receiving support to continue in holiness, he has temporarily turned to walk another way. So I see what there is to pray for is this: that the very people he was afraid of for 30 years will reach out to him; and that if they do not, that his current direction will fail and he will turn back and reach out to the church that will not condemn him for what his temptations are. Sorry, I feel strongly about this, nothing personal. Who knows, perhaps this current situation for him is part of God's plan of redemption for him; it doesn't make sense to me, but then God's ways are far above and better than my ways.
Piano Man
That is obviously what I, Alan Chambers, and CS Lewis mean. The problem is, Alex will never understand/admit that. Hence the sarcasm in my responses, and disinterest in continuing this discussion.
Ellie,
In that case, “gay people live in Heaven” and “formerly gay people live in Heaven” mean two completely different things, don'tcha think?
remove
Thank you very much for this response Piano Man.
(Randy, this is your house, and I don’t mean to “highjack” this thread, or say or “promote” anything that’s offensive to you. As a result though, I’m having a hard time feeling free to be fully open with my responses. So if you feel the need to delete one or more of these posts, please don’t hesitate to send the response to the person it was addressed to, along with my email(s). Thank you, -Patrick)
[Cheryl, I’m also going to reply to your original message, to save on space, like I think Piano Man did. We’ll see where it turns up, lol]
–
Cheryl,
E: “could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?”
C: The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
-
As an avid thinker, that’s the part I don’t get. Infinity by nature — as a concept — is a constant state of increasing. So any God that we, or even God itself could conceive of-itself (at least any God that we could conceive of), would always always, be smack dab in the middle of infinity. If God is truly infinite, how could it ever perceive it’s own magnitude? Thus, Its goal, as Love, is to increase Itself, so as to increase It’s own awareness of its own magnitude.
I’m not necessarily saying that that infinite conscience of God doesn’t exist right now, but as a human, that’s one conundrum that I can’t seem to wrap my brain around (yet), but my curiosity will not let it go. : )
–
E: “But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to “eat of,” or “understand” the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?”
C: I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
-
I’m not suggesting God is a liar, and I do believe there was somehow a discernable “warning,” it’s just another one of those paradoxes I’m trying to figure out. Before the fall, it was Heaven all the time, we had no knowledge of the existence of what “bad” meant — thus the “warning” not to find out about it. But at the same time, we couldn’t conceive of an experience where anything “bad” could happen. Thus, our lack of fear in learning about the meaning of evil (eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil).
God/Love/Heaven, always perceives good and evil in perfect balance. Parts of Its creation — such as ours — are capable of perceiving them separately. When I say “nothing bad can ever happen,” what I mean is that if we could see and feel and know how much “good” that that “bad” contributes to the increase in Heaven, then we will see even the bad as part as a necessary part of the GOOD. (FYI, NONE of which is any kind of promotion of causing evil or bad or harm to others!)
I’m not a big Bible reader, but I think there’s a part that says “count it all in joy,” “all things work for the glory of God,” and the ever popular, “God has a reason for everything.” Those are reflections of what I mean.
I think we are at the bottom of creational “fallen” “barrel” so to speak. I think this world was designed specifically for us to master the sensations of good and evil separately, but on a conscious level this time. So that unlike before the fall, when we were just recipients of God’s Love, this time, upon mastery, we’ll be able to generate — and be worthy of — directing God’s Love – fearlessly and with the full knowledge of the reality of good and evil.
–
C: On a not so different note, I am amazed that..
E: I pretty much agree with that paragraph. That’s another one of those conundrums I’m often working on — what “life” was like before the fall. (I believe we are all eternal aspects of the consciousness of God. No beginning, no end), it’s our identities that are being defined and awakened. Like the cells of our bodies, each one unique and different, with a unique role to play in the total-consciousness (or “god” part) of our being, if you will. You could even look at the people of the Earth in the same way. Some of us are thinkers, some of us “digest” the information the world has to provide so the rest of us can understand it and absorb it, some of us are heart cells that make sure the rest of the body gets that usable information, some of us are T-cells, who make sure certain bad things NEVER happen again, and some of us are fat cells, just sitting around, without passion, absorbing everything going on around them, just incase of emergency.
You get the point, but my point is that this is our “identities,” as designed and as aspects of God that are being honed, via the challenges of this world (good and evil), to reach their fullest potential.
–
C: Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical!
E: Again, I’m not promoting or endorsing harm of and kind, and I agree that fear and pain are the consequence of sin – and are bad things to avoid and stop! But if God truly is only Love, then all creation could only come from that “substance.” (even evil is the ‘love’ of the absence of love). Point being, how would you know that fear and pain are not illusions if they are truly illusions? Point being, again, If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus – and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.
–
C: …consider a new relationship.
E: To be clear, it’s not a “new” relationship I need, it’s the sustainability that’s the problem, but I’ll try.
::Thanks for the reminder::
Somebody in here somewhere asked me a question–but that was like 30 comments ago and now I can't remember anything. It's Friday!
Do I need a DISQUS account to rate comments? What is the benefit of rating comments? Who sees it and benefits from it? Didn't really know where to ask the question but I wanted to rate a comment here so thought it's a good as any place to ask.
Hi Susan,
I don't think you need a Disqus account, you just click on the up or down arrow below the poster's icon (with the up arrow being plus a point, and the down arrow being minus). If you do need an account, it probably will ask you to sign in after you press the arrow.
The benefit of rating comments is so that the commenter gets more validation that they provide thoughtful, polite (or at least non-trollish) comments. The way Disqus works is that it is a system that goes across many blogs, not just Randy's. So if you go to another blog using the Disqus system, you can still use your same name and icon, and it will collect all of you comments from across the blogs you visit into that one account. The more you comment, and the more highly rated you are, the more experience points you have. So, theoretically, if you go to a new blog where nobody knows who you are, but you are a four-point Disqus member, they can tell that you have more experience being a nice member of the Blog community than a one-point Disqus member, and they will freely allow your comments through. (If you go up to Jay's comment [just Jay, not Jay Schlosser] you can click on his name, and see every comment that he has made here, and on other blogs. He just happens to be somebody that I know uses this on more than one blog.)
The other reason for rating comments is that it's fun!
Well, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around … it seems different for whatever reason.
However, dang … that is a LONG comment.
There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.
WOOT!!! Friday!!!
You can do an in page search from your browser menu for your name. That might help.
FRIDAY!
I just rated your comment up
.
But … I do think you have to claim your account. I haven't tried it otherwise though.
Hey Susan, I would suggest going ahead and clicking through (by clicking on your picture or name beside a published comment) and claiming your profile (basically registering.) It's easy and free. It also unlocks a couple (not much) extra features. You can also upload a picture
.
BUT, keep the following post in mind so you won't be caught off guard if some things change soon.
http://randythomas.org/2008/09/24/my-brain-your...
It seems like everytime I read from or speak to a physicist (or other smart person who understands complicated mathy things) about what it means for God to be infinite, I get a different answer. Sometimes even totally contradictory answers. And scientific types say they're objective. Hmph! (ok, I work at Caltech, so I do like science and scientists…a little).
Anyway, I think maybe the whole “God is infinite” thing is something that can't be fully understood based on mathematical principles/theory, or at least math as it is known within the universe, because it doesn't seem like anyone has a coherent, widely accepted answer on what that means. (Although an alternative explanation could be that we just don't fully understand what infinite means, yet).
The other problem I think you might be running into, is that you seem to have a pastiche of ideas of what God is like, some of them True, and some of them false, drawn from various sources. The thing that I would immediately zero in on is the fact that you seem to think that Good and Evil have to be (or at least are) in perfect balance, and that Evil can contribute to the goodness of God. I know that most (if not all) of the Christian philosophers I have read pretty much reject that idea, but I don't have the ability to recreate anyone's argument here. You might look into it, though.
“Well, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around … it seems different for whatever reason.”
Oh goodie, we’re frienemies.
“… it seems different for whatever reason.”
Less hateful and vindictive?
But you‘re right, I usually am hateful and vindictive.
“However, dang … that is a LONG comment.
There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate…”
I know, that’s what I thought too, but even though I have a lot of “innocent” pages, it’s too easy to click on something that would most likely be seen as offensive. Maybe I can set up another site, just for situations like this.
“but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.”
I have one more long post to Piano Man Kugie. It’s perfectly civil (in effort anyway), but some of the content may be a bit “out there,” as far as beliefs and understandings go. I’m trying to be as open and honest as possible for the sake of the quality of the conversation. So that’s one reason for the length, I’m trying to over explain things in order to ensure that anything potentially offensive-sounding is not misconstrued as such. But, if you feel the need to delete my next post, I’ll accept it. I’ll be disappointed as well, but I would just ask that you at least appreciate that I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my posts here are not meant to be offensive, as I am a guest, but more importantly, that you appreciate that I don’t just throw this stuff around. This is me.
That's a good response. My question always is … why must people label themselves? I sometimes get frustrated with people who want to label me either “gay” or “straight” …. Why can't I just be a woman created in God's Image who just happens to be on a journey of discovering what had always intended for me. By the way, that pretty much is the journey that Christians are in regardless if they have issues surrounding same-sex attraction and Gender Identity issues or not.
And I'd agree with you Randy, and can also testify to not fretting and I'm certainly not a waste either. And neither do I go about trying to pursuade myself and/or others in who I am.
OK,… Emproph, you need to start writing out your very very … very long answers on your own blog and pointing people from here to there with a link. Maybe do a summary here of… So and so, I responded to our dialog on 1)2)3)…17) on my blog at …..
You are hijacking the thread.
OK, there isn't any “goodie” to it in my opinion. The Lord commanded me to love and be prayerful toward my “enemies” not frienemy. I hopefully will turn the other cheek but I will never turn a blind eye as long as you maintain your usual approach to us and our beliefs.
As for your blog, I don't swim around in pools full of broken glass.
I did delete your long post to Piano man knowing full well you have other avenues to communicate this to him. This is a comment section, not a rough draft for a book. Break it down or post lengthy responses on your blog. I don't want a pattern developing where the thread is completely lost to “Jamming” it with debates framed from your point of view.
I also didn't think your post was offensive. I only deleted it because it was way to long and taking over the thread.
And while I respect you have put a lot into them and are being honest, I think they are best served in a post on your blog and not in the middle of almost a 100 comments.
(Randy, this is your house, and I don’t mean to “highjack†this thread, or say or “promote†anything that’s offensive to you. As a result though, I’m having a hard time feeling free to be fully open with my responses. So if you feel the need to delete one or more of these posts, please don’t hesitate to send the response to the person it was addressed to, along with my email(s). Thank you, -Patrick)
[Cheryl, I’m also going to reply to your original message, to save on space, like I think Piano Man did. We’ll see where it turns up, lol]
–
Cheryl,
E: “could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?”
C: The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
-
As an avid thinker, that’s the part I don’t get. Infinity by nature — as a concept — is a constant state of increasing. So any God that we, or even God itself could conceive of-itself (at least any God that we could conceive of), would always always, be smack dab in the middle of infinity. If God is truly infinite, how could it ever perceive it’s own magnitude? Thus, Its goal, as Love, is to increase Itself, so as to increase It’s own awareness of its own magnitude.
I’m not necessarily saying that that infinite conscience of God doesn’t exist right now, but as a human, that’s one conundrum that I can’t seem to wrap my brain around (yet), but my curiosity will not let it go. : )
–
E: “But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to “eat of,” or “understand” the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?”
C: I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
-
I’m not suggesting God is a liar, and I do believe there was somehow a discernable “warning,†it’s just another one of those paradoxes I’m trying to figure out. Before the fall, it was Heaven all the time, we had no knowledge of the existence of what “bad†meant — thus the “warning†not to find out about it. But at the same time, we couldn’t conceive of an experience where anything “bad†could happen. Thus, our lack of fear in learning about the meaning of evil (eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil).
God/Love/Heaven, always perceives good and evil in perfect balance. Parts of Its creation — such as ours — are capable of perceiving them separately. When I say “nothing bad can ever happen,†what I mean is that if we could see and feel and know how much “good†that that “bad†contributes to the increase in Heaven, then we will see even the bad as part as a necessary part of the GOOD. (FYI, NONE of which is any kind of promotion of causing evil or bad or harm to others!)
I’m not a big Bible reader, but I think there’s a part that says “count it all in joy,†“all things work for the glory of God,†and the ever popular, “God has a reason for everything.†Those are reflections of what I mean.
I think we are at the bottom of creational “fallen†“barrel†so to speak. I think this world was designed specifically for us to master the sensations of good and evil separately, but on a conscious level this time. So that unlike before the fall, when we were just recipients of God’s Love, this time, upon mastery, we’ll be able to generate — and be worthy of — directing God’s Love – fearlessly and with the full knowledge of the reality of good and evil.
–
C: On a not so different note, I am amazed that..
E: I pretty much agree with that paragraph. That’s another one of those conundrums I’m often working on — what “life†was like before the fall. (I believe we are all eternal aspects of the consciousness of God. No beginning, no end), it’s our identities that are being defined and awakened. Like the cells of our bodies, each one unique and different, with a unique role to play in the total-consciousness (or “god†part) of our being, if you will. You could even look at the people of the Earth in the same way. Some of us are thinkers, some of us “digest†the information the world has to provide so the rest of us can understand it and absorb it, some of us are heart cells that make sure the rest of the body gets that usable information, some of us are T-cells, who make sure certain bad things NEVER happen again, and some of us are fat cells, just sitting around, without passion, absorbing everything going on around them, just incase of emergency.
You get the point, but my point is that this is our “identities,†as designed and as aspects of God that are being honed, via the challenges of this world (good and evil), to reach their fullest potential.
–
C: Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical!
E: Again, I’m not promoting or endorsing harm of and kind, and I agree that fear and pain are the consequence of sin – and are bad things to avoid and stop! But if God truly is only Love, then all creation could only come from that “substance.†(even evil is the ‘love’ of the absence of love). Point being, how would you know that fear and pain are not illusions if they are truly illusions? Point being, again, If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus – and where the Holy Spirit come in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.
–
C: …consider a new relationship.
E: To be clear, it’s not a “new†relationship I need, it’s the sustainability that’s the problem, but I’ll try.
::Thanks for the reminder::
Somebody in here somewhere asked me a question–but that was like 30 comments ago and now I can't remember anything. It's Friday!
Do I need a DISQUS account to rate comments?
Hi Susan,
I don't think you need a Disqus account, you just click on the up or down arrow below the poster's icon (with the up arrow being plus a point, and the down arrow being minus). If you do need an account, it probably will ask you to sign in after you press the arrow.
The benefit of rating comments is so that the commenter gets more validation that they provide thoughtful, polite (or at least non-trollish) comments. The way Disqus works is that it is a system that goes across many blogs, not just Randy's. So if you go to another blog using the Disqus system, you can still use your same name and icon, and it will collect all of you comments from across the blogs you visit into that one account. The more you comment, and the more highly rated you are, the more experience points you have. So, theoretically, if you go to a new blog where nobody knows who you are, but you are a four-point Disqus member, they can tell that you have more experience being a nice member of the Blog community than a one-point Disqus member, and they will freely allow your comments through. (If you go up to Jay's comment [just Jay, not Jay Schlosser] you can click on his name, and see every comment that he has made here, and on other blogs. He just happens to be somebody that I know uses this on more than one blog.)
The other reason for rating comments is that it's fun!
Well, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around … it seems different for whatever reason.
However, dang … that is a LONG comment.
There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.
WOOT!!! Friday!!!
You can do an in page search from your browser menu for your name. That might help.
FRIDAY!
I just rated your comment up
.
But … I do think you have to claim your account. I haven't tried it otherwise though.
Hey Susan, I would suggest going ahead and clicking through (by clicking on your picture or name beside a published comment) and claiming your profile (basically registering.) It's easy and free. It also unlocks a couple (not much) extra features. You can also upload a picture
.
BUT, keep the following post in mind so you won't be caught off guard if some things change soon.
http://randythomas.org/2008/09/24/my-brain-your...
It seems like everytime I read from or speak to a physicist (or other smart person who understands complicated mathy things) about what it means for God to be infinite, I get a different answer. Sometimes even totally contradictory answers. And scientific types say they're objective. Hmph! (ok, I work at Caltech, so I do like science and scientists…a little).
Anyway, I think maybe the whole “God is infinite” thing is something that can't be fully understood based on mathematical principles/theory, or at least math as it is known within the universe, because it doesn't seem like anyone has a coherent, widely accepted answer on what that means. (Although an alternative explanation could be that we just don't fully understand what infinite means, yet).
The other problem I think you might be running into, is that you seem to have a pastiche of ideas of what God is like, some of them True, and some of them false, drawn from various sources. The thing that I would immediately zero in on is the fact that you seem to think that Good and Evil have to be (or at least are) in perfect balance, and that Evil can contribute to the goodness of God. I know that most (if not all) of the Christian philosophers I have read pretty much reject that idea, but I don't have the ability to recreate anyone's argument here. You might look into it, though.
“Well, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around … it seems different for whatever reason.â€
Oh goodie, we’re frienemies.
“… it seems different for whatever reason.â€
Less hateful and vindictive?
But you‘re right, I usually am hateful and vindictive.
“However, dang … that is a LONG comment.
There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate…â€
I know, that’s what I thought too, but even though I have a lot of “innocent†pages, it’s too easy to click on something that would most likely be seen as offensive. Maybe I can set up another site, just for situations like this.
“but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.â€
I have one more long post to Piano Man Kugie. It’s perfectly civil (in effort anyway), but some of the content may be a bit “out there,†as far as beliefs and understandings go. I’m trying to be as open and honest as possible for the sake of the quality of the conversation. So that’s one reason for the length, I’m trying to over explain things in order to ensure that anything potentially offensive-sounding is not misconstrued as such. But, if you feel the need to delete my next post, I’ll accept it. I’ll be disappointed as well, but I would just ask that you at least appreciate that I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my posts here are not offensive, as I am a guest here, but more importantly, that you appreciate that I don’t just throw this stuff around. This is me.
That's a good response. My question always is … why must people label themselves? I sometimes get frustrated with people who want to label me either “gay” or “straight” …. Why can't I just be a woman created in God's Image who just happens to be on a journey of discovering what had always intended for me. By the way, that pretty much is the journey that Christians are in regardless if they have issues surrounding same-sex attraction and Gender Identity issues or not.
And I'd agree with you Randy, and can also testify to not fretting and I'm certainly not a waste either. And neither do I go about trying to pursuade myself and/or others in who I am.
Thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough response Piano Man Kugie. I addressed as much of it as I could:
“1. …But I ask you to further consider the thought that some suffering might actually bring forth more good than bad.â€
Agreed. But as I’m sure you can understand, it’s the nature of suffering itself that blinds one to the higher good. That, of course, is the challenge – to maintain that sight throughout..
“2. Holiness isn't what I would naturally think of as a solution for being sexually alone, nor would anyone else naturally think that. So if it is a solution, it's a different solution. My craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€
“My craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€
But what we’re talking about is (your sentence, reworded):
My human craving for love and companionship can be solved by experiencing love and companionship, but it may also be solved through not experiencing love and companionship. Yes, it’s a thought, I would say it’s even the goal, but it speaks to a very small audience, of which, at this point, unfortunately, I am not apart of.
“3. The LORD is willing to be with you in spiritual union, and you may find Him to be adequate compensation for the lack of physical union, as odd as it seems. His kingdom really is far out of this world. As for Rules, they literally kill; but the Spirit gives life.â€
Sometimes God IS with me in spiritual union, but when He is, I recognize His Kingdom as being all around me, and understand that we never ‘left’ Heaven, or “The Garden,†so to speak.
As for the Rules kill and Spirit gives life, the way I take that is as what is called karma and dharma. Karma being the law of cause and effect – there are actions and equal consequences, and Dharma as being the mastering of those rules to the point where all that pours out of you is God’s Spirit and a knowingness of, and desire for His Will.
“4. When he encourages me to glorify God with my body, he's encouraging me to reflect the image of God. Since the image of God is both male and female, I perceive that male and male is only half of God's image, or put another way, instead of Christ the Groom and the Church the Bride, it would be Christ the Groom and Christ the Groom, God making love to himself instead of to us. Yes I agree this whole concept is bizarre, I just ask you to consider it all.â€
Not bizarre at all, I understand the concept, and I basically agree. Hold on…
“5. God may have attractions for women in your future, but then you'd have to live with dealing with those. Sounds to me like you have enough to deal with already. I confess I don't understand and can't understand what it's like to be a woman in a man's body; I only know what it's like to feel the very intense desire for a man.â€
So if you were transplanted into a woman's body (somehow), would you then not be a heterosexual woman?
I remember having lived before.
After a traumatic event, and much vociferous prayer to God as the result, I received two spontaneous past life revelations, which explained why it affected me so, and much MUCH more.
I realize that I’ve just trashed any credibility that I may have had with some of you, but my point is that at least for me, there is a genuine knowing that it is no more sinful to accept one’s same-sex attraction, than it is to choose to be born in the “wrong†body.
There’s a lot more to that story, and I do understand that many will consider what I’ve just said to be an hallucination or of Satanic influence, and perhaps it is, but it explains too much and has improved my life too much to dismiss it as such.
—
You say: “To your question How is it sinful? No more than the greedy, or the slanderer, or the self-righteous, etc.â€
But those are all things that directly cause harm. My question was, (paraphrased), how does the romantic intimacy (love) shared between two adults of the same gender cause harm? There’s no malice, or even harm-causing negligence.
The best answer I’ve heard so far, is that it would be “taught†in schools as being a part of reality. If a parent thinks that human sexual attraction is that fluid, then I guess I can see that as a legitimate fear, but that needs to be explained MUCH better – with personal testimonies – by these fearful parents, about how they didn’t know whether or not they were attracted to boys or girls until a very late age.
I remember being attracted to men when I was 4 years old, and nothing ever changed, so it’s extremely difficult, if not impossible to relate to this, what appears to be a theory of universal sexual fluidity.
If same-gender intimacy — and I’m not just talking sexual (if at all) — causes those two people to be more loving and productive individuals in their own lives, and by extension, more productive members of society, who then, is the victim?
OK,… Emproph, you need to start writing out your very very … very long answers on your own blog and pointing people from here to there with a link. Maybe do a summary here of… So and so, I responded to our dialog on 1)2)3)…17) on my blog at …..
You are hijacking the thread.
OK, there isn't any “goodie” to it in my opinion. The Lord commanded me to love and be prayerful toward my “enemies” not frienemy. I hopefully will turn the other cheek but I will never turn a blind eye as long as you maintain your usual approach to us and our beliefs.
As for your blog, I don't swim around in pools full of broken glass.
I did delete your long post to Piano man knowing full well you have other avenues to communicate this to him. This is a comment section, not a rough draft for a book. Break it down or post lengthy responses on your blog. I don't want a pattern developing where the thread is completely lost to “Jamming” it with debates framed from your point of view.
I also didn't think your post was offensive. I only deleted it because it was way to long and taking over the thread.
And while I respect you have put a lot into them and are being honest, I think they are best served in a post on your blog and not in the middle of almost a 100 comments.
Piano Man here. I just reread my response to Patrick above, and OK, it is LONG. OK, I'll keep everything short. If I can't say it short, I won't say it. Thank you for having this blog. I don't have a blog, and I'm not about to place my email address here. Thanks again Randy for the blog.
Piano Man, please don't be inhibited. Long is ok from time to time but not every comment needs to be a full on article
.
Piano Man here. I just reread my response to Patrick above, and OK, it is LONG. OK, I'll keep everything short. If I can't say it short, I won't say it. Thank you for having this blog. I don't have a blog, and I'm not about to place my email address here. Thanks again Randy for the blog.
Piano Man, please don't be inhibited. Long is ok from time to time but not every comment needs to be a full on article
.
Thanks for your comment, Patrick. I've been out of town and had a difficult trip home. All that to say, I want to think about what you've said and I know I can't do that with my brain still floating somewhere between Orlando and Calgary! Who knew I would run into tropical storm issues flying in Toronto rather than Orlando?!?!
Orlando is very beautiful, Randy.
Thanks for your comment, Patrick. I've been out of town and had a difficult trip home. All that to say, I want to think about what you've said and I know I can't do that with my brain still floating somewhere between Orlando and Calgary! Who knew I would run into tropical storm issues flying in Toronto rather than Orlando?!?!
Orlando is very beautiful, Randy.
Patrick!
I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.
Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, “Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.” James 1:2 and “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans…you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.
What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness (”being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt” is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 “For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.
Your comment, “If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus – and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.” made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.
I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.
I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, “I am the Light of the World”, My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.
Patrick!
I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.
Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, “Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.” James 1:2 and “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans…you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.
What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness (”being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt” is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 “For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.” Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.
Your comment, “If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus – and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.” made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.
I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.
I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, “I am the Light of the World”, My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.
Sorry, Patrick. Romans 6 was what I was meaning when I said Romans 3.
Hope you're well!
Sorry, Patrick. Romans 6 was what I was meaning when I said Romans 3.
Hope you're well!
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